The End of Identity Liberalism

Discussion in 'The Thinking Cap' started by Thurr, Nov 23, 2016.

  1. ABDeL

    ABDeL DiploGuard Our Creator Site Advisor

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    Either you're feigning ignorance or outright lying. Marx and Engels saw couples as breed bots whos children would be raised in collective daycares while mom and dad were obligated to work. The society and state would be in charge of education as opposed to the parents through home or religious education. Marx and Engels hated the traditional patriachal family. To state that Marx and Engels were stupid enough to think that the majority of women would willingly give up their children to the state in a post-capitalist world is ignorant and/or arrogant. The only way this would be achievable is through coercion or by creating such harsh conditions that families would essentially be forced to give up their children. To pull a page out of your book, prying children from their parents to be raised in the communist society would go against their biology and hence, unnatural.

    Everything in communism is predicated by violence and force. Marx didn't argue that the world would slowly and peacefilly slide into communism as it had to capitalism, he advocated for violent revolution by the proletariat. Communism fails because of its appeals to force and coercion. You can't make the "communism will be an idea who's time has come" argument when the incitement to violence against "oppressive" institutions exists.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
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  2. The_Phalanx

    The_Phalanx Man with the Pointy Sticks DiploGuard Administrator Map Maker

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    Sounds like you're not considering the context of the piece that you're quoting.
     
  3. Ordo

    Ordo Lore Judge

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    Thats nonsense, all of this is a backlash against yes identity politics but also cultural crisis caused by mass immigration from third world and also globalization. Globalization as in entire industries moving to Asia and middle class in West subsequently losing its economic footing. Just look at what caused Trump win- Midwest ruined by outsourcing voting for Donald.
     
  4. ABDeL

    ABDeL DiploGuard Our Creator Site Advisor

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    The family bit or violent revolution bit?
     
  5. The_Phalanx

    The_Phalanx Man with the Pointy Sticks DiploGuard Administrator Map Maker

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    Well, in the spirit of Feanor'ing I feel I should only pick one, but its applicable to both.

    EDIT: I apologize, I forgot this was the Thinking cap. I was troll Feanor'ing you, but I just realized you probably thought I was serious because this is the Thinking Cap. The General Election 2016 has spoiled me with its mix of trolling, memes, and legit intellectual debate.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
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  6. Feanor

    Feanor Member Liaison Officer Site Staff

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    Marxism is not dogma. It's a scientific approach, though granted a humanitarian science. Marx was right about some things and wrong about others. Given that communism is what will come after capitalism, and given that capitalism is still here today, Marx could only poke and prod at what it would actually look like. That having been said, women have willingly sent their children to day care while they themselves went to work all across the world. To say that this would only be achievable through coercion is an implied argument about human nature and one that first off needs to be made explicitly and second off I don't think will hold water.

    This, specifically, is where I think Marx was mistaken. He was exercising wishful thinking. Follow his own logic. Materialist dialectic means that each self contradiction is overcome not through the victory of one aspect but through development that renders the conflict itself irrelevant. Feudalism didn't end because the peasants rose up and overthrew the nobles. It ended through the rise of a new class, the bourgeousie, and the development of industrial urban centers that drew peasants out of the country side and into wage-paying city jobs. In some places this did involve a violent revolution (French revolution for example) in others it was done peacefully. I think Marx borrowed a Hegelian "end of history" concept without realizing that while it's an interesting philosophical concept, it doesn't actually follow from the logic of his own work. That having been said it's entirely possible that communism will involve violence, since it's unlikely that the vested interests of a capitalist society will readily give up and roll over in the face of reform. So, to be precise, I think that Marx was mistaken when he saw communism as the end of history. However I don't see how "everything" about it is predicated on force. Especially since we don't know what "it" is. I suggest you either consider the meaning of the word predicated, or develop that claim a little better.
     
  7. MatthewB

    MatthewB

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    It’s a response to Mark’s article. He points to the failures of identity liberalism in this recent election as proof that is should be abandoned. If he effectively wants to dismantle identity liberalism, he should be pointing out its own hypocrisy.
     
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  8. Thurr

    Thurr DiploMVP

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    Feanor, do you have books/papers that further explain the definition of communism put forward in this thread? I'd be interested in reading them.
     
  9. ABDeL

    ABDeL DiploGuard Our Creator Site Advisor

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    Women also choose the day-cares they send their kids to. There are countless types of daycares to choose from and they are not monoliths. You can send your kids to a daycare that is religious, art, education or home based. In a communist society, you will probably be able to only send your child to one type of daycare, the state-run daycare as Marx described. Not to mention that stay at home motherhood would be strictly forbidden.

    And this is where your "Communism will be an idea whose time has come" argument falls on its face. If its entirely possible that the implementation of communist ideals will involve violence, then we can characterize the examples of the Soviet Union, China and Cuba as "true communism" as the violence was the only means necessary to take the power of wealth of people vested in the status quo.

    Systems and governments borne out of force and coercion tend to continue down the path, whether they be theocratic, communistic or even capitalist. There are many examples of coercion-free, socialist-inspired systems such as Israeli kibbutzim which are collectivist in nature but voluntary. And they have stayed voluntary because they were borne that way. But 99% of communist real world examples are going to be violent which is why I said it is predicated on it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
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  10. Feanor

    Feanor Member Liaison Officer Site Staff

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    Let me get back to you on this.
     
  11. Feanor

    Feanor Member Liaison Officer Site Staff

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    Why are you ignoring what I wrote? It's why I rated your post illiterate. Look. I'll quote myself.

    It's literally the part you intentionally cut out and responded to the rest.

    You want to criticize Marxism without actually learning Marxism. I think we're done here. This is an amateur political philosophy level conversation.

    Here I'll quote myself again since you've once again ignored the most significant part.

    On the subject of force, did capitalism round up peasants into the cities? No. But what happened to entire rural districts in India where weavers lived, once the factory system took hold? They starved. Force can take many forms. The French Revolution involved force, and yet today France is a liberal democracy. And a capitalist one. Governments aren't magically created out of a series of events. They're part of a historic continuity. Systems of economics and the relations based thereon are not arbitrary. That's constructivist nonsense stemming from a fundamental ignorance of history.

    And once again, though I'm sure you will simply ignore it. There are no real world examples of communism. None. 0. Zip. Whatever, let's end this. I'm tired of you willfully ignoring actual marxist theory and instead providing 6th grade level critiques of 20th century state socialism.
     
  12. ABDeL

    ABDeL DiploGuard Our Creator Site Advisor

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    I have achieved the coveted Feanor illiterate rating. My job in this thread is complete. The only thing you've proven in this thread is your intellectual arrogance instead of actually educating any of us as to why we're wrong.

    Maybe you should refrain from any debate in the future since you're so much better educated than everyone else here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
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  13. Feanor

    Feanor Member Liaison Officer Site Staff

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    I gave you a detailed response that you chose to ignore. 1 herdsman can bring 100 horses to the river but even 100 herdsmen can't make 1 horse drink water.
     
  14. SteakOnSpear

    SteakOnSpear ᛊᛏᛖᚨᚲ ᛟᚾ ᛊᛖᚨᚱ Map Maker

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    What you get for ignoring the context. You facist pig.
    Clearly you have to remeber that in much more conservative and tradditional germany late 1800. People wanted to break up families.
     
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  15. M3rkabo

    M3rkabo

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    Identity politics is for the weak. Facts are for adults. Hard truth makes men. PC culture makes little pussy inept beta males who need a safe space. /thread.

    I've thought for a long time that modern day liberalism has been flipped from the meaning it once had, largely due to human domestication and even eugenics to a certain extent. Take the general Liberal's catering toward the religion of Islam while they simultaneously claim to be women's rights advocates for instance. Major disconnect from facts there. Sharia Law anyone?
     
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