Economy Changes?

Discussion in 'Coming of the Horde' started by FiveStarGeneral, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. FiveStarGeneral

    FiveStarGeneral

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    So I've browsed through the patch notes and there have been a lot of changes to IP/exp/gold since 18.0, but from the gist of it (esp. the more recent patches) and from games that I've both played and watched I've gotten the feeling that the current economy balance is skewed against Horde. There have been others who have mentioned this in games as well and I think there might need to be some rebalancing.

    IP

    Throughout entire games, Alliance heroes are usually only about 1.5 items worth of IP behind Horde heroes. This doesn't really make sense in my opinion when you consider that there are 8 Alliance heroes vs 4 Horde heroes. I watched a replay and I believe that Alliance is currently getting passive 30 IP/10 seconds while Horde seems to be getting 25 IP/10 secs. and with some math this translates to 25200 more passive IP for Alliance than Horde by 30 minutes. Another thing I'd like to mention is that I've played quite a few 3v8s lately and I don't feel there's any significant IP/exp gain on Horde from the deded player. I read 21.7 patch notes and saw that IP gain from leavers was nerfed but don't know how much. Finally, bronze I was wondering how is IP from kills distributed amongst players? Does it only go to the player who gets the kill?

    Exp
    To be honest I have no idea what's really changed about how exp is distributed since 18.0. But something (not sure what) happened between 16.9b and 18.something that made Alliance heroes more "relevant" and I think that was a good thing. I just have one question. Is exp only distributed to heroes near the kills?

    Gold
    Horde is often strapped for cash even when they play well and don't feed hard. I believe Alliance is currently getting passive 170 gold/10 secs while Horde is getting 300 gold/10 secs. Again, this doesn't really seem to make sense considering that there are 8 Alliance players.This would mean that Alliance as a whole would have gained 28800 more gold passively than Horde by 30 minutes (though of course some bases are dead by then). I also noticed in a replay that after red died Alliance immediately got 2k. Is this a trigger that only applies to red or after 2 bases die or something? Another thing I read in 21.7 was that Alliance passive gold was buffed when only 2 bases are left remaining and I think that is probably unwarranted.


    There has been a trend that I have noticed in every game unless one side is completely noob and it shows up regardless of which team ends up winning. Even when Horde sweeps 3 bases easily within the first 15 minutes or so and game should be pretty easy, Alliance always ends up hitting this spike at around 30 min where they get really strong and can start shrugging off Horde units because they have so much passive IP (aka not IP gained from killing Horde units). As llspy mentioned, Horde is more difficult to play, takes more attention, etc. When you combine this with the fact that there are 8 Alliance heroes with loads more passive IP and gold, and that the majority of Horde players are just okay (meaning inefficient unit usage, decent builds, meh macro, hero dies kinda often, etc) the game can seem impossible and frustrating to them and that is one of the big reasons I hear people say about why they don't want to play Horde. I hope other people can throw in some opinions as well but first I think passive gains (IP more so than gold) need to be nerfed pretty heavily. To compensate, it makes more sense to me to increase IP gains from kills as a "reward" for good play (question: is IP gain=gold gained from killing a unit). I don't know how the current gold system works but Horde needs a slight gold buff or Alliance a nerf or some combo as well. And finally, I think leaver IP nerfs should maybe be undone.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2017
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  2. MatthewB

    MatthewB

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    I don't have enough experience to know if all of this is correct. However, there are other factors that you need to consider.

    Alliance spends a lot more gold on upgrades than Horde. Alliance spends more IP buying scrolls of teleportation than Horde. Stacking experience and items on one hero is better early on than distributing it between two heroes.
     
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  3. Synegg

    Synegg

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    I don't have details about the numbers but I know gold is always automatic. Kills only give IP not gold.

    Kills give exp only to heroes nearby.

    IP awarded for unit kills is given solely to the killing player, not shared.

    I think the natural progression of the game once a few bases fall is that alliance heroes start to concentrate at the same locations so that's why horde always loses momentum
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  4. Synegg

    Synegg

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    On your point about 'rewarding good play' here is another idea that has been bounced around previously:

    How about Alliance farms also give a small gold/IP income as well as food cap?

    This would add incentive to players doing bridge defense/pass defense/outer wall defense etc.

    The follow up change is that farms should then get extra hp/armor or possibly even throne armor so it is harder for wolf rider raids to screw up alliance economy.

    The other follow up change is to relocate certain farms, for example Stormwind farm should be inside its outer walls to encourage outer defense.

    Also Dalaran's outer generator should also count as a 'farm'
     
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  5. FiveStarGeneral

    FiveStarGeneral

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    Yeah that's true but nowadays Alliance just oftentimes feel really "fed" even when Horde hasn't been feeding. Especially compared to the earlier versions immediately after the reterrain.

    As someone who probably tps around more than most ppl I dont think the IP spent on tp scrolls plays that much of a role especially given how quickly passive IP accumulates. Good Horde players tp around a lot as well. The gold difference between Alliance upgrades and Horde upgrades is pretty minimal as well.
     
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  6. FiveStarGeneral

    FiveStarGeneral

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    Adding IP/income-related objectives to the game would certainly make the game more interesting. I think bronze did give Horde some IP bonuses for taking thrones which were nerfed later on iirc based on reading the patch notes. In any case, the main problem I see with the current balance is that Alliance hits the power spike too early in the game (and I'd like to emphasize again that these are games with decent, non-feeding Hordes who play early game well i.e. taking 3 bases within 15 min or so) due to excessive passive gains. I don't think there should be such a big reduction such that Alliance will only have 3 items by 60 min such as in 16.9b levels (which was probably the most balanced version though) because that would make the game less fun for Alliance. But I do think whatever changes are implemented should calibrate it so that Alliance hits the spike from having 8 heroes about 7 min later than they currently are.
     
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  7. dagan3

    dagan3

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    I think the problem with overpowered Alliance heroes towards the endgame lies not with item growth (as this will damage well balanced heroes), but with the heroes themselves. Specifically, many agility heroes of the Alliance tend to become extremely overpowered towards the endgame, examples include: Daelin, Kurdran, Sylvanas, even Turalyon. The trend is clear that Agility heroes are super strong. Some, like Kurdran, is overpowered because he can for essentially free using an Aszune or a local heal permanently harass (read: annihilate) key units like warlocks or revenants for the Horde and not die for it. Literally get ontop of the army of yellow and suffer every warlock fire bolt and every revenant thunder storm and every flyer sent at him and he will at worst get to mid hp, because Wayward and Aszune including some other items are so strong on him.

    Daelin, I don't even play teal in any way so I don't even know what his kit is technically. Sylvanas because she has huge penetrating power, though I find her to be pretty balanced, if more annoying and deadly than most other Alliance heroes. Turalyon I only hesitantly put on that list because I remember twice or thrice where I was incredibly frustrated at him, but I think the medal for 'most overpowered Alliance characters' (or as their players like to call them, 'carry heroes') go to Kurdran and Daelin. If I didn't have to see their faces playing Horde would be twice less annoying.

    One thing I do find frustrating on the Horde side regarding income, though, is the fact Horde is punished for having careful assaults. I often camp out (sometimes for *five solid minutes*) outside green as I wait for the perfect opportunity, which usually results in 1-2 hit KO. First brief attack to take out towers + worker, then I wait it out for green to teleport. Then I throw my doomguards over one wall with a flyer, then pop a demon portal (archimonde), and proceed to take out green. This is a very selfless strategy because I am letting my allies get fed and making sure that Sylvanas doesn't get a lick of feed.

    But I end up constructing items incredibly slowly and become underleveled. I will often find myself at par on levels with many Alliance characters as early as level 13 and not ahead in items. I'm not entirely sure what a solution could entail, but I do find a meta where I have to throw everything I have at the enemy at the latest when I'm at food cap to be rather annoying.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  8. BronzeKnee

    BronzeKnee Map Maker

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    IP
    You are correct regarding the passive IP, each Alliance player gets 30 IP every 10 seconds, while the Horde gets 25 IP every 10 seconds. Kills award IP to the player who killed the unit. Additional IP income can comes from bonuses if either the Horde or Alliance is doing poorly (more about bonuses at the end). Finally, the Horde gets IP every time they destroy Thrones/Violet Citadel/Sunwell/Aerie Peak/Hillsbrad/Northshire.

    You are also right that a Horde player will be about 1-2 unique items ahead of their Alliance counterpart (assuming equal skill). This was intentional. The Alliance used to not get many items unless they had an amazing game and there city was constantly attacked by the Horde. I added in passive IP so it wasn't feast or famine for the Alliance (some Alliance heroes having 4 uniques while others were struggling to get one), and though I reduced the IP given by kills I wanted Alliance players to be able to afford more items in general, because acquiring items is fun, adds more strategy to the game, and allows people plan out item builds among other benefits. If you could only afford 1-2 unique items then your choices would be significantly narrowed.

    Obviously, that is a massive buff to Alliance heroes. So I added in the unit auras, gave the Horde some passive IP (though clearly not even half of what the Alliance gets) and greatly buffed every Horde hero, with a focus on buffing their scaling for the late game.

    I did reduce the IP gained from leavers several times for both sides (removing any passive IP from an Alliance leaver completely). The reason being is twofold. First, people were more likely to kick newer players so they could beef up their heroes. Second, and more importantly, it ruined the balance. Having more item points = more items = more kills = more levels and more item point. So it created a snowball effect, especially for the Horde, where their heroes would spike really hard in power in the midgame and be unstoppable and just end the game. Alliance heroes with 2 uniques were no match for Horde heroes with 6. Of course if the Alliance somehow survived to the late game, they would win because the Horde is down a hero, but it rarely got that far. And this would happen with the Alliance too, the extra IP meant their heroes would scale as fast, or even faster than Horde heroes and then you'd reach a point in the mid or late game where they could hold a position indefinitely quite easily.

    So the Alliance and Horde still get the IP from leaver unit kills (split between players), but the Alliance gets none of the passive IP the leaver would have generated, and the Horde gets 50% of the passive IP a leaver generates (split between active players).

    EXP
    Experience is given passively every 60 seconds to all players. This system helps new players level up, means that players don't have to always have their hero in the action (meaning an Alliance player can setup a counter attack), and prevents individual players from getting too far ahead in levels. Experience from kills is divided and given to nearby heroes.

    Gold
    The Horde gets a static 300 gold every 10 seconds, also gets a gold bonus every time they destroy Thrones/Violet Citadel/Sunwell/Aerie Peak/Hillsbrad/Northshire.

    The Alliance is a bit more complicated, below is an example of the code for Lordaeron, and all Alliance players have similar code:

    Multiple Functions If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
    If - Conditions

    (Throne of Lordaeron 0384 <gen> is alive) Equal to (==) True
    Then - Actions
    Multiple FunctionsIf (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)
    If - Conditions

    ThroneCount Greater than or equal to (>=) 5.00
    Then - Actions
    Player - Add 170 to Player 9 (Gray) Current lumber
    Else - Actions
    Player - Add 140 to Player 9 (Gray) Current lumber
    Else - Actions
    Multiple Functions If (All Conditions are True) then do (Then Actions) else do (Else Actions)

    If - Conditions
    ThroneCount Greater than or equal to (>=) 6.00
    Then - Actions
    Player - Add 50 to Player 9 (Gray) Current lumber
    Else - Actions
    Player - Add (110 - ((Integer(ThroneCount)) x 10)) to Player 9 (Gray) Current lumber

    So basically what this says is that every 10 seconds if the Throne of Lordaeron is alive, and the ThroneCount variable (which is how many Thrones the Horde has taken) is 5 or greater (meaning that the Alliance only has three cities or less left for the Horde to conquer), Lordaeron gets 170 gold. If the ThroneCount is less than 5 (meaning the Horde has 4 or more cities left to conquer) Lordaeron recieves 140 gold.

    If the Throne is not alive (Lordaeron has been taken), and the ThroneCount is 6 or greater, then Lordaeron gets a flat 50 gold. Otherwise, Lordaeron gets 110 gold - 10 gold for every Throne that has been taken. So refuge gold can vary from anywhere from 100 to 50 gold for each Alliance player.

    Why is this so complicated? Because the Alliance players who still had their throne in the late game were increasingly not being able to afford units and mount an effective defense, while refuge players were stacking gold and having no food to use it on. So this helps out the Alliance players who have cities left lategame and reduces refuge gold.

    Finally, there is gold bonuses for both the Alliance and Horde if they are doing poorly. When they activate isn't set it stone, it is randomized to prevent people from being able to predict them (the IP bonuses are the same). For instance, if the Horde knew that by taking Stormwind in the first 10 minutes (this is an example not the real bonus) would give the Alliance a bonus, they could take the city but hold off on killing the Throne until 10 had past to deny the Alliance the bonus.

    Overall I think all of these systems works well right now, but I am always open to ideas to improve them. In a game played perfectly, I think the Alliance has a slight edge, but I think the Horde is winning more games right now because it is really hard to get everyone to work together well on an Alliance team.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  9. FiveStarGeneral

    FiveStarGeneral

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    I totally agree about giving Alliance more than 2 items for the same reasons you mentioned. I simply think the passive rate at which they acquire those items atm should be just a little bit slower. I think everyone knows that Alliance gets stronger as the game lengthens as they accumulate more items on 8 heroes vs only 4 on Horde but right now the power spike just seems slightly early and "undeserved" especially in games where Horde does really well the first half.

    I know C so I get what the code is doing (though that looks like javascript or something I dunno?) and I think a conditional gold income system is great. For what it's worth, unattacked mid-game Alliance bases currently have about 16k with 70 food at 32 min (I looked at a replay and can upload if you feel it'd be useful). I think you said a while ago you buffed Alliance gold to encourage counterattacking but tbh not very many people do it and even fewer do it without feeding or are able to achieve anything with counterattacks. Far more effective is harassment by Alliance heroes who already have a bunch of items halfway through the game. Imo, instead of encouraging counterattacks this simply buffed an Alliance late game that was already pretty strong with the IP changes.

    I'm not sure about Horde winning more. I've played a bunch in the last 2 weeks on both Horde and Alliance and odds feel like 7:3 for Alliance. Also, one leaver on Horde is absolute devastating especially given how strong Alliance is late game atm and is almost impossible to win even if Horde plays well and dominates early.
     
  10. BronzeKnee

    BronzeKnee Map Maker

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    Horde has won every game I've played recently except one so it might just be a coincidence that I've seen that. As for the players banking gold, I notice it all the time, but usually when the Horde is struggling one of their players has 25k+ in gold. If you don't mind uploading some replays, I'd love to see replays of the Horde playing well but getting crushed because I haven't seen too much of that.

    Also, hero harass is countered by Towers, Warlocks and Satyrs (Cripple on Death Knights and Purge on Ogre Magi are also useful here). I always build towers to protect my bases and never really have an issue with it. If people want to donate their hero to my towers and Warlocks, that is fine with me. On the other hand, if I see a base without towers when I am playing as the Alliance I will absolutely send my hero out and try to get some free IP.

    I can definitely tinker with the economy, I am curious what the experience of others has been.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  11. BronzeKnee

    BronzeKnee Map Maker

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    I do also want to say that I recently buffed the item point bonuses to the Alliance if they fall way behind. Maybe I overdid it, each bonus went from 400 to 475. I can cut that back to like 425 or 450.

    Let's try that first.
     
  12. Synegg

    Synegg

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    There's been so much anecdotal evidence it's really hard to tell these days. Also each player's perception of how the game went can be totally different and different again from the perspective of a neutral observer.

    While horde might feel like they are getting crushed on 1 front but actually that's where alliance committed the majority of their resources. Also if there's a veteran horde player then the best alliance players will likely try to focus them down.

    Is there any way to get total map played stats and alliance/horde win rates through the map or mmh?
     
  13. FiveStarGeneral

    FiveStarGeneral

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    How do the IP bonuses work? Is it give 475 IP to each Alliance player if at some time there are less than some number of thrones? And does that "check" happen in certain intervals of time? And is it correct that Horde gets 250 IP for each throne?

    I don't mean games of Horde playing well and getting crushed. Horde never really gets crushed unless they are filled with newbies. What I mean is Horde playing better than Alliance and still losing or barely winning simply due to how hard Alliance scales late with all the passive IP and gold. Here is a replay that you played in as well bronze. It was a 4v7 with two noobs (red and blue) on Alliance. All 4 Horde players knew how to play Horde and imo the overall skill level on Horde was quite a bit higher than that on Alliance. Yet, the game still ended up being ridiculously close despite how well Horde dominated in the first half of the game. At the end of the game, 3 of the Horde players were pretty close to being exhausted gold-wise as well.
    http://www.filedropper.com/economy_1
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  14. BronzeKnee

    BronzeKnee Map Maker

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    Yeah I didn't put in big effort early in that game for a variety of reasons and that affected the outcome. We also had one player not spending his gold.
     
  15. Synegg

    Synegg

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    The filedropper links tend to expire after a while, is it possible for everyone to upload replays directly to diplomunion?
     
  16. FiveStarGeneral

    FiveStarGeneral

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    Okay well I don't know if you know this but many coth players right now (at least the ones who play Horde at all) would probably agree that Horde can often be a pain in the arse to play. dagan3 has called it masochistic lol. In addition, one leaver and with just a decent Alliance, lategame is already almost impossible to win no matter how well you play because you're missing one hero. I guess the main problem for me is just that I feel currently Alliance has a lot of leeway to play inadequately in the first half or so of the game. But even if they do so, as long as they somehow make it to 25 min or so, then they suddenly have 3 items or more and start wrecking shit. I think that yes Alliance should have a bunch of items, especially if they play well. But right now I think Alliance is peaking a little too early even when they don't play well simply because they get so much passive IP. I have been looking at old patch notes and please correct me if I'm missing something but after 18.9 was released and passive IP/XP came out, Alliance was op (1st page of replay thread) so you nerfed Alliance a little. But in the following patches, you nerfed Horde as well. Overall, the gap didn't really change. And then you buffed Alliance really hard in 19.7 when you increased alliance passive IP from 25 to 30/10 secs and reduced Horde gold/IP bonuses. Tbh a little bit of stat gain/level doesn't make that much of a difference especially when EACH Alliance player just gained about 3k more passive IP by 30 min.

    It's fine if you disagree though. I don't know, but I feel your opinion might change if you play more Horde vs decent Alliance teams but even if that's not the case, as always just throwing in my 5 cents.


    Synegg the filedropper is still up for me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
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  17. MatthewB

    MatthewB

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    Horde being more difficult and more reliant on each teammate is just part of the nature of this map.


    I don't understand why you think each alliance player gets 3k more by 30 min.

    A: 30ip/10 secs = 180ip/1minute = 5400ip/30minutes

    H: 25ip/10secs = 150ip/1minute = 4500ip/30minutes

    It also doesn't make sense if you were talking about the change from 25 to 30.

    5ip/10secs = 30ip/1minute = 900ip/30minutes
     
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  18. FiveStarGeneral

    FiveStarGeneral

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    What I did is 5400*8 players - 4500*4 players = 25200 more total IP for alliance/8 players = 3150 more IP per player. Did my logic fail somewhere? What you did looks correct too.....
     
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  19. FiveStarGeneral

    FiveStarGeneral

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    Okay here's another replay of a pretty solid Horde randomly getting stuck halfway into the game despite black feeding his butt off at Hillsbrad and little if any feeding on Horde. Horde did pretty well, taking 4 bases by 39 min. Dg does remark that there was feeding but I checked the replay and I don't believe there was any. Imo he probably just felt Alliance was fed because Alliance has so many items from passive IP. At 43:45, gray and purp already had 11k gold stockpiled up and 50 food. Black would've had roughly the same as well if he didn't let his army get ganked at Hillsbrad. Meanwhile, two Horde had about 7k and the other two were dirt poor and it doesn't get much better the rest of the game. If you just zoom through the replay and compare Horde and Alliance gold and items, Horde is just basically a bunch of hobos. Lb and I had 10-12k halfway through the game but at that point all of our attacks were pretty much useless because Alliance heroes were so strong and our allies were broke. We pumped all our gold into purp near the end before everyone rq but still nope. Please let me know why Horde lost...

    Attached Files:
     

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    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
  20. BronzeKnee

    BronzeKnee Map Maker

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    I increased the passive IP from 25 to 30.

    So 30 = 5400ip/30 minutes and you multiplied that by the number of Alliance players (8) then subtracted the Horde gain IP 4500/30*4 players and got 3150. That is how much more passive IP the Alliance currently gets per player.

    But you forgot to subtract that from the what the Alliance used to get. The Alliance used to get 4500ip/30 minutes * 8 players = 18000. Subtract 25200 from that and you get 7200, divide it by 8 and you get how much the buff increased it buy, which was 900 gold per player.
     
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