Can Islam follow Christianity in Moderating itself?

Discussion in 'The Thinking Cap' started by nodle, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. nodle

    nodle Budtender

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    Very interesting question, well at least to me.

    Can Islam moderate itself like the modern Christian faith?

    Ordo pointed out that Islam has no central authority/system like Christianity does that allowed it to modernize it's values, however due to the continued schism of Islam this has been harder to do, as there are contrasting translations/meanings/values.

    Currently in its state, Islam regresses progress in the liberal values that the West holds and even opposes it in some ways.

    So the Question pops up, when/can Islam become a moderate and modernized religion?

    Also I know moderate muslims exist already, the question points to the whole.
     
  2. Feanor

    Feanor Member Liaison Officer Site Staff

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    It would likely involve the fall of many current governments, and deep long term changes to the very societies in which Islam is prevalent. Also, while Catholicism was a "central authority" of sorts, it split with the Orthodox Church , and later with itself (protestant Reformation), and then again with Anglicanism. There have been comparisons made between the current conflict in the Middle East and the 30 years war in Europe. So the short answer is yes. But the corollary is that these processes take place on a historic timescale. Meaning we certainly won't see it within our lifetimes, or even our grandchildren's lifetimes.
     
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  3. nodle

    nodle Budtender

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    Then following this to current times with the immigration crisis, can we hope for a major moderate push for those in Europe? In a previous discussion earlier a great many of these people will not change their ways nor ideals in the very present, In fact alot of evidence points that it will take two or three generations for a full integration of these immigrants.

    So can we hope for a "enlightenment of Islam" in Europe soon? Or do we have to look in the future more mass bombings, rise of terrorism and preferred segregation in European Societies.
     
  4. Feanor

    Feanor Member Liaison Officer Site Staff

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    The Europeans need to take serious steps at the government level to ensure that the immigrants are assimilated. Yes assimilated. They need to learn German, find work, and be integrated into German society. Current actions keep the immigrants segregated, stewing in generally crappy conditions with lots of spare time on their hands, and surrounded by others in a similar situation. Stick one person into a class of 30 Germans, and he'll assimilate in no time. Have 30 separate classes of 30 people, with one entirely devoted to immigrants, and you're asking for trouble. On the one hand these people should be welcomed for demographic and economic reasons, on the other hand they need to be integrated, and aggressively.
     
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  5. SteakOnSpear

    SteakOnSpear ᛊᛏᛖᚨᚲ ᛟᚾ ᛊᛖᚨᚱ Map Maker

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    Once Islam exist in a secular society it will be modernized. An authority/system is not what made Christianity so progressive. It was the split from that authoritative system.

    It very much can happen as you can see in countries like Glorious Denmark, where religion plays such a small role in life, many Muslims adopt a much milder more progressive version of Islam.
     
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  6. nodle

    nodle Budtender

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    Mhmm, same thing in Canada and US as well. But with the untracked flow of immigrants how long do you suppose it will have to take for these large swathes? The major problem is they are coming in untold numbers and unchecked, how can you integrate/assimilate them all? I fear this will push European societies in a more regressive state. Even before the crisis the UK was having immigration issues with muslims and the fact they are openly marching for Sharia courts.
     
  7. Ordo

    Ordo Lore Judge

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  8. SteakOnSpear

    SteakOnSpear ᛊᛏᛖᚨᚲ ᛟᚾ ᛊᛖᚨᚱ Map Maker

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    From what i remember, it was muslims in the arab world who rioted and burned flags in the streets.
     
  9. AxelTheGreatest

    AxelTheGreatest Heda

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    No. Moderate muslims exist, but moderate islam will not.
    About Denmark: here are some facts you didn't know.

    Did you know that Mohammed was born in Denmark, in a suburb of Kopenhagen? The first drawings of him were found there.
    mohammed.jpg
    Denmark truelly is the Mecca of Europe. Geographicly, Denmark is located precisely on the east pole, meaning that no matter where you are, you always pray facing east.
    GG
     
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  10. Sukramo

    Sukramo The Sane Map Maker

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    Note that christianity didnt chose to moderate itself, it collapsed due to its own greed in building the largest church in the world and selling out any semblance of moral authority while doing so.
     
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  11. OmegaKnight

    OmegaKnight The bannerman

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    True, so this lead to only 2 options avaible for islam.

    1)Becoming the biggest religion around, getting corrupted and the reformed after schisms and internal fighting.

    1)It's power spearated form poltical one, which will never happen outside some ol fashioned foreign occupation for prolonged years.
     
  12. SteakOnSpear

    SteakOnSpear ᛊᛏᛖᚨᚲ ᛟᚾ ᛊᛖᚨᚱ Map Maker

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    Just because it happened that way for Christianity, doesn't mean it's the only way it can happened for any religion.
    It's true it wasn't the pope who decided to reform. It was theologians and their ideas that spread naturally.
    I don't see how it would even be possible for a religion to change it self, even hypothetically.

    I would say it is something in Christian ideology, that made it possible to naturally change over time. Something Islam evidently doesn't have.
    Christianity seem to be following the evolving society more, while being more of an influence on society than what shapes it.
     
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  13. ABDeL

    ABDeL DiploGuard Our Creator Site Advisor

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    A few key facts for your consideration:
    1. There has never been a time in history after the death of the Prophet that Muslims were not trying to spread Islam past its present or historic borders.
    2. The Muslim notion of the "Ummah" supersedes loyalty to one's country or tribe. This is why you end up with Egyptians fighting In Afghanistan against the Russians or Saudis in Syria fighting against the government. The whole idea is that the Ummah is a global community, and Muslims are responsible for aiding their brethren if they are "oppressed".
    3. Islam has no tradition of separation of Church and State. As Jesus famously said, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's". This means that Christians can still live in a secular society without pushing for religious laws.
    4. 2nd and 3rd generation Muslims whose parents successfully integrated into the West have turned to terror or have been indicted on terror charges.
    5. Most people who criticize Islam wind up dead or jailed. There are some outspoken atheists who live in Egypt, Sherif Gaber is one of them who brings up a lot of problems with Islam.
    Islam can only follow Christianity if a few things occur. Wahhabism has to be defunded, which means the Saudi Monarchy needs to be boycotted. That country needs to be sent back to the Feudal age. Non-literalist traditions of Islam need to grow and be encouraged. "Reform Islam" needs to be formed the same way "Reform Judaism" was.
     
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  14. SteakOnSpear

    SteakOnSpear ᛊᛏᛖᚨᚲ ᛟᚾ ᛊᛖᚨᚱ Map Maker

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    Just want to comment on this. It's interesting how you can look at the historical figures and it makes perfect sense why there is this difference.

    Jesus was part of a suppressed minority group, who lived under the rule of another ethnic group. Makes perfect sense that he would encourage his followers to live in peace with the government, to not get into trouble. He had no power to do what Mohammed did.

    Mohammed was a conquer, he was the the head of state of his followers basically, didn't answer to no one. Therefor it makes perfect sense that he would make the rules for his religion non-secular. As he would decide the 'practical law' and set the spiritual rules.
     
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  15. Bild

    Bild

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    The main issue with this comparison is that the forces that led to the Haskalah are not present in the Islamic world; in fact the biggest issue is that there is an Islamic world. The driving force behind the Jewish Enlightenment was that Jews were exiles forced to live on the fringes of European society due to legal and social suppression which varied in severity by nation, ranging from forced confinement in ghettos as was the case in Italy and Germany to legal equality as was the case in Poland (I'll be referencing this later on so don't think I'm just throwing in random oppression facts for pity points). The Haskalah was the result of generations of oppression and discrimination that made the Jews of Western Europe desperate for the acceptance of European society and were willing to adapt their culture and faith to be more palatable to Christian Europeans. As the Jews of Eastern Europe were allowed greater freedom than those of Western Europe, the Haskalah was much less extreme than in the West as Eastern European Jews had little reason to change their ways and as such Reform Judaism as a denomination was only prevalent in the Jewish communities of Western Europe while Orthodox Judaism (although not without some reform of its own) continued mostly unopposed in Eastern Europe. Meanwhile Muslims for the most part have always had lands of their own and no need for acceptance by any other group as they themselves were conquerors and oppressors.

    And this is without bringing into account the fundamental differences of the two religions that makes Judaism more flexible in terms of religious law (lack of proselytism, less restrictive interfaith marriage, etc.).

    (Banter Warning) It's almost as if Jews are sensible and Arabs are prone to violence and irrational thinking!
     
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  16. ABDeL

    ABDeL DiploGuard Our Creator Site Advisor

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    I'll admit I'm not very knowledgeable about Judaism, but wasn't Reform Judaism formed to make it easier to be a Jew in Western societies?
     
  17. AxelTheGreatest

    AxelTheGreatest Heda

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    Uhm, looking at their laws I'd say that that is exactly the age in which the country currently is.
     
  18. nodle

    nodle Budtender

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    Egypt still in pharaoh times it seems like.
     
  19. nodle

    nodle Budtender

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    So all in all, islam cannot be reformed into western societies without a serious effort of the government to reform Muslim communities in their state?

    If this is the case, then there is a serious dilemma, Europe can choose to either, continue its ineffective integration process of these illiterate Muslim men in hopes of a love beats all situation with tolerance, or begin major reforms to push out muslims that refuse integration and continue to self segregate.

    They can also either begin to oppress the Muslims to integrate, however as Bild said the case with Judaism was different.

    The final solution is well..... Kick them out and keep Europe western.
     
  20. Bild

    Bild

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    Reform Judaism mostly originated as a result of the Jewish Emancipation. Prior to the integration of Jews into mainstream Western European society the rabbis had an almost autocratic grip on their communities since it was they who was the representation of the Jews to their local government. After Jews were given the same freedoms and rights as their gentile neighbors the rabbis lost their control over Jewish society and the Jews of Germany came to admire the less ritualistic and more vernacular and spiritual ministries of their Protestant Christian neighbors. Eventually certain synagogues began to emulate the services held in Protestant Christian services (pulpit sermons, counseling, vernacular prayer, etc.) and were forsaken by the Jewish mainstream until the Reformists grew great enough in number to form their own denomination with a centralized leadership that spread the Reformed teachings to the rest of Western Europe. While Reform Judaism did not take root in Eastern Europe the rabbis there were more sympathetic to the Reform movement and accepted some of the more conservative reforms while rejecting those that they believed went against Jewish Law (Halakha); the minority that rejected the Reform movement entirely became known as the Haredim or “Ultra-Orthodox Jews” (extremist Zionist fuckers who refuse contact with both gentiles and non-Haredi Jews) while the rest became what we today call “Orthodox Jews”. A much more insignificant denomination that I barely feel the need to mention is “Conservative Judaism” which was formed by Reformists who felt that the Reform movement was too liberal but Orthodoxy was too conservative so they formed some congregation with vague teachings that is followed by a very, very small percentage of the Jewish population (there is currently a discussion amongst the Conservative Rabbis about merging with the Reform Jews so it might not even exist for much longer).

    So in a sense you are correct, but technically speaking the Reform movement was a result of an already integrated Jewish people rather than a movement seeking integration. What I'm trying to say with all of this is that it was the Jewish Enlightenment (Haskalah) that led to the Jewish Emancipation that led to Reform Judaism. So I guess if Islam was to follow the same path as Judaism there would need to be some sort of Islamic Enlightenment that would lead to Reform Islam.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2016
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