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Evad_Flor

Azeroth Wars Lategame Discussion (+Polls)

Azeroth Wars Lategame Poll  

7 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you enjoy Azeroth Wars lategame right now (45+ minutes)?

  2. 2. Do you want to see something change about Azeroth Wars lategame?

  3. 3. What do you think is unenjoyable and needs to change? (Multiple answers question)

    • TP Scrolls: Large invading armies teleporting inside your base by surprise.
    • Hero Squads: Kills hundreds of units quickly with spells, especially ultimates.
    • 300 Units: Cap size of units being too high, causing lag & spam.
    • Gold: Too much gold in lategame causing everything to be too cheap.
    • Capitals: Takes too long to destroy an enemy capital.
    • Second Chances: Causing imbalances in the global war.
    • Ally Restrictions: It's confusing and almost never see it.


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Azeroth Wars lategame have not remained the same over the past 10 years. 

Here's a few things that have changed the lategame over the past year:

 

1. Allying is now restricted.

2. Gold income inflation.

3. Available second chances with large starting armies.

4. More powerful items (and where to find them).

5. Main faction buildings made very durable. 

6. Solopaths and leaving ally system.

All of this and more have changed lategame over the years. On top of the lategame changing, more players are also still playing when it's lategame. The average playtime in Azeroth Wars have increased dramatically. A game that used to have 6 players leaving in the first 20 minutes are now often seeing 8 players still fighting 45 minutes into the game.

 

Overall, I see increased playtime as a win, it's not an easy thing to accomplish. However, there's multiple things that happens in the lategame that I and others find to be unenjoyable. Now that people are spending more of their playtime in the lategame I think it's good to discuss it.

 

Lategame Concerns

The 3rd question in the poll is a collection of matters that I've heard people be unsatisfied with. Here I'll explain those concerns in a little more detail. You can answer multiple times in the 3rd question so you can pick and choose which of the 7 subjects you don't feel happy with currently.

 

1. TP Scrolls. Lategame can easily become a teleportation game where an attacking player surprises someone by teleporting close or inside their base with a large army. The defender often have too little time to stop the teleport and must instead teleport his whole army nearby to defend. The majority of all lategame attacks are done by building something and teleporting to the building and as a defender it can be very hard to predict and protect yourself against such attacks. A building can be teleported to by many at the same time so in worst case scenario 2 armies teleports in which is almost 200 units max. 

 

2. As game progresses, the physical damage of units increases and so does armor to balance it out. In Azeroth Wars, the magic damage dealt by hero squads increases fast while there's no counter balance to that. There's almost nothing a player can do to protect his regular units from heavy AoE magic damage. As a result, the lategame can often become dominated by hero squads capable of killing hundreds of units very quickly. 

 

3. Every unit costs 1 food and limit is 300 food. In the lategame you often have no more upgrades to research, you've got a lot of gold and a large empire. You only have 1 hero squad. In this situation you often have to train large amounts of units to fight everywhere in your large empire. This is problematic since you can only control 12 units at the same time and the game becomes unstable with thousands of units moving and fighting all at the same time.

4. Gold inflation has been happening for years and have reached high levels. In the lategame, you've researched everything and the only thing to spend gold on is training cheap units. All strong units have a limit on them. Since there's a lot of gold, situations where there's a long spam war between 2 sides are becoming more common. If both sides have over 10k gold, these types of spam wars can last for a very long time with there being a stalemate.

 

5. To counter surprise aim capitals from sneaky players coming from boats or with a teleport scroll, the armor and health of capitals have been increased to very large levels to give defenders enough time to react. However, some players think the durability might have reached levels that are too high. For factions that don't have good units for destroying buildings, it can take a really long time destroying one main building.

 

6. Second chances gives players hope. Some that had a bad game can get a fresh start on better terms. For winning players, they can become a problem. A Scourge player that is busy fighting South Alliance to then see Ebon Blade coming from inside his territory. Fel Horde fighting North Alliance to then be surprised by a 100 unit army Illidari in Outland. C'thun surprising Horde players while they're fighting overseas. The result of giving defeated players a second chance is that it makes the game a lot harder for the winning players. It's a natural consequence that have brought some dissatisfaction among players.

 

7. The new allying system is regulated to ensure that a faction can't ally whoever they want. In general, "solo factions" not allowed to ally anyone. Starting factions not allowed to change allegiance until their ally have left the game. Then there's a few combinations on top of this that are not allowed. This makes the system very confusing for everyone and most people don't know when they can ally somebody else. The restrictions and the confusion combined results in you seeing very few people changing allies in the lategame. There's been several players expressing complaints about this system. 
 

Edited by Evad_Flor
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Honestly I find late game spamming to be one of the funnest parts of the game, assuming you execute it well, do it intelligently, and use it in conjunction with your main army.

 

Unit lag only occurs because people spam large amounts of units in a single zone, but there is much less of an issue if you spam large amounts of units in multiple areas (let's say 4-6) . In this scenario, you only have 4-5 grunts attacking cps from 4-6 angles. Unit lag does not occur in this situation. The units are spread out across a much larger amount of zones and die faster in general.

 

So in that sense, unit lag is primarily the player's faults (this is alongside the lumber system that needs to be revamped imho) . People are not willing to do the rote mechanical task of setting up barracks in 4-6 locations, use boats to their advantages while macroing near shorelines, and set up scouting mechanisms like Owls wherever you go (it may be boring for many people and micro be way funner, that's fine  --there's better micro players than me) .

 

By the same token there's no issue at all (in my opinion) with scrolls of teleport. In fact, I wish capitals had less health because it rewards map awareness. And if you develop map awareness as a skill in the player base, you might see less unit lag.

So on a technical level it's a l2p issue. That said the system does encourage you to make mistakes with the high food cap, since building 6 barracks in 6 locations is a harder than building 6 barracks in one location.

 

There *is* too much gold in the map at the moment.

 

I think the food cap should be lowered to 250, there should be less gold circulating in the map, and the lumber system should get revamped.

Edited by Talinn

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@Talinn

It's true that if you spread the actions of units out then the lag is reduced. The complaint of large scale battles is focused on the limitations of a players attention, max 12 selected units and the lag caused by having hundreds units in one place fighting.
I agree that the max unit cap should be lowered. However, I remain uncertain about the solo factions, should the max unit limit be based upon which faction you play? So a North Alliance faction could have a limit of 200, a South Alliance faction a limit of 250 and a solo faction like Fel Horde be limited to 300.

You talked about revamping the wood system, I'm guessing you're talking about having units and heroes cost wood. I personally think that reviving heroes, training elites, catapults and big units should have a wood cost to them.

Here's an example:
Normal units costs 50% of their gold cost in wood. A unit that costs 20g also costs 10w to train.

Reviving heroes costs 200% of their gold cost in wood. Reviving a hero costs 100g + 200w.

Training an elite costs 150% of their gold cost in wood. 75g + 115w .

A catapult costs 250% of their gold cost in wood. 30g + 150w.


I also think that it would be interesting to consider revamping the food system in Awlr. At the moment, all factions practically have enough food buildings to reach 300 food from the start. Well, what if we reduced the amount of food all buildings give so that players might only have capacity for 100-150 units at the start and need to build the rest? A farm that gives 6 food recuded to giving 3 food, Castle from 40 to giving 20 and etc. The food system is never a factor in the game and it used to be a valuable resource you had to balance. If you think about Melee Warcraft, a Farm that gives 6 food can provide for 3 Footman units. Well, in Awlr all units costs 1 food so a farm would logically give 3 food to keep the same ratio.

 

If you were to combine the wood cost and the food cost revamp ideas, then there is a lot more a player needs to do economically before he's ready to spam hundreds of units in a single battle. The inflation of gold can have a reduced effect on the game by increasing the importance of wood and food by making them more scarce.

When it comes to Teleport Scrolls, there's too little time to react. The element of surprise is such a significant advantage. What I would change about Teleport Scrolls is to only allow players to teleport to completed main buildings with 72 units instead of 96. Sneaky teleport surprises inside enemy bases becomes a weaker strategy. Attacks via sailing in boats become more prevalent instead which I think is good.

 

Edited by Evad_Flor
Grammar

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I will personally expose my opinion on this; I think second chances as you made them are totally off and are fully against the games philosophy.

 

It makes no sense to give second chances to players which are, basically, stronger than their 1st chance. That not only rewards a loswer which is totally ilogical but it also incentivises people to just dismiss their 1st chance to go for the 2nd. 

 

C'thun for instance is ridiculously strong and hard to kill if the player is competent, you won't finish your kalimdor rivals and cthuns 2nd chance in time to prepare against whats happening on the rest of azeroth. You will either be ganked for whoever comes to kalimdor or fall drastically behind on the global scale and lose the game becasue you had to kill that annoying player twice with his 2nd chance being stronger than his first one.

 

In resume, i have always been against 2nd chances on AWLR i think it goes against the core game design, if you lose go pirate or be someones puppet thats my opinion. And even if you want 2nd chances so bad then at least make them a weak thing that scales over time into being a powerful faction only after some time has passed. Make 2nd chances able to have a saying on the global scale over time but don't make them that powerfull that they can instantly keep fighting against the guy or guys who he just lost too,  thats stupid.

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@TheVinylRaider

You believe that second chance as a "solo faction" option for players who lost the game is an imbalance in the core game design? That how it's been set up, it cannot ever be something balanced?

 

Second chance solo factions must be made strong enough to stand on their own which makes them naturally stronger than a starting faction. How does a second chance faction get a saying in the global war if they are not powerful? By the time second chances become available, the entire map have already been conquered by someone, so you can't get a peaceful start. All second chances spawn inside the territory of a team with 2 players and 450-600g/min economy. To stand a chance against that, they must be made strong.

Do you think that the second chances should have a completely different system? If so, do you have any suggestions on what to change?

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With second chance, the thing is, the old ones were not at all supposed to give you a chance to win.

 

You can get second chance when you lost the game only. So first of all, I find that strange that a looser can still win since he lost... Secondly, let's take the example of Sylv or blood elves, it was more a funny stuff than an actual race or anything. Quel'Thalas looses everything when Sunwell is destroyed so we gave him bloodelves that spawn at dalaran to not be completly removed from the game. Same with blue when Kil jeadan dies after Archi, he had dreadlords thing, same for red with sylv. Look at old second chances for yellow & dg; it was Stromgarde + Aerie Peak. It was super weak and designed to make you ally someone (like NA for example). But since alliance system has been removed old second chance are kinda pointless.

 

But after saying this I'd like to see how it goes on the new version because now people can't get second chance before being totaly dead so a part of the cancer is removed.

 

But I 100% agree that second chances are far too strong.

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^^ I think the same as guy above

 

Lower the ammount of second chances and make them weaker, maybe ammani trolls in middle islands, a kul tiran nation (would have to be taken from dala), maybe even a pirate based faction etc etc. But all of them should be kinda weak starters like nagas on 1.59 versions or Blood Elves on not too long versions. Factions that require some minutes to build up its economy and overall capability.

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4 minutes ago, TheVinylRaider said:

^^ I think the same as guy above

 

Lower the ammount of second chances and make them weaker, maybe ammani trolls in middle islands, a kul tiran nation (would have to be taken from dala), maybe even a pirate based faction etc etc. But all of them should be kinda weak starters like nagas on 1.59 versions or Blood Elves on not too long versions. Factions that require some minutes to build up its economy and overall capability.


The flaw with this concept is that the entire map is already under someone's control 30 minutes into the game. Slowly growing stronger is not likely to happen when your second chance spawning into reality automatically attacks a stronger team.

Here's a suggestion that I got. What if the second chances were small allies to winning factions? For example, if Night Elves win on Kalimdor the Horde players can choose to become Draenei on Azuremyst Isle and be supportive allies to them. If Horde wins against Night Elves, they can choose to be Goblin allies controlling Ratchet, Everlook, Gadgetzan, Kezan and Bilgewater Harbor. If Scourge defeats NA, they can choose to be undead allies like undead Sylvanas, Dreadlords and etc.

With such a design you don't have the chaos caused by suddenly having a new powerful enemy army spawn inside your empire. This would instead award winning players with a new potential ally providing support & utilities. It would make winning teams even stronger but that's the tradeoff in the design.

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