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Legends of the Second War Overhaul in Progress - Feature List Inside

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I'm so glad and happy to see this map getting some love. This is one old precious jewel. Cheers to you @EagleMan!

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Awesome to see that Eagle is on the job, another goldie oldie being modernised.

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I hope you aren't making every tech tree the same. LoTSW was fun because of the varied roles of the different factions, i.e some with Caster specs, etc. Giving everyone a heal/dispel/whatever will not be fun. We've already seen the results of the mirror match up philosophy in ISH ..... rip..... 

 

Also, why make demi revivable? 

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1 hour ago, War4life said:

I hope you aren't making every tech tree the same. LoTSW was fun because of the varied roles of the different factions, i.e some with Caster specs, etc. Giving everyone a heal/dispel/whatever will not be fun. We've already seen the results of the mirror match up philosophy in ISH ..... rip..... 

 

Nah that's not what I meant at all, just that tech trees are planned to be relatively complete and cohesive. Obviously I can't make them as differentiated as the 4 different races of WC3, I just don't want people to be dependent on allies for certain things. Some aspects will be weaker or stronger but you'll have something to work with, Mirror match philosophy also wasn't my intention for ISH but the community was too inflexible to let me vary up the gameplay, and even pushed certain patches further towards mirror matches.

1 hour ago, War4life said:

Also, why make demi revivable? 

I haven't made any demis yet so maybe I won't even go through with that but an approach I'm keeping in mind for the map is to stray away from the design philosophy that rewards targeting down specific things to the detriment of other strategic gameplay options. This would allow me to add in more figures from the Second War (whether from the original game, or books or WoW lore) without having to make them heroes. This would reduce the negative gameplay outcomes of people leaving just because one thing died (even if victory is still possible) or people suiciding armies trying to kill one unit just to inflict "permanent" damage on an enemy player. Revivability means you're freer to actually use units in battle but are still punished if you over expose them to where the enemy can snipe them easily; it also means that with the mechanics of WC3 you're safe to transport.

 

LOTSW is largely at this state already, it's more just tweaking the edges of it, and it's what allowed for LOTSW games to go on really long in the past because it meant you didn't have rage quits or premature game calls because someone lost a hero. The worry then can be that it takes too long for a clear victor to emerge in a game. That'll be something to address if needed once people can actually play the map and where we're also past the issue of having most of your players be newbies which means you lose 1-2 people guaranteed in the first 10 minutes simply because they aren't interested.

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I will say this. 

 

Do not, under any circumstances, ruins dwarves. The only map where I only and only play dwarves and I love it.

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Yeah people tend to have their favorite slots and many people would host just to play Dwarves. Not all the techtrees will be complete revamps, Dwarves are already pretty fleshed out.

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Was gonna say that 7v7 might make the Thandol Span a little clogged, but if you're redoing it then it should be k. Also, would shared experience for everyone dilute the 1v1 trolls/elves fight a bit? Not sure how that would play out.

 

I did like LotSW a lot because of its really fast loading times and general bare-bones apporach. Most worried about custom models being added that activate my derp phobia of custom models, but everything else looks reallly good. Excited to try it out

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20 hours ago, Talinn said:

Was gonna say that 7v7 might make the Thandol Span a little clogged, but if you're redoing it then it should be k. Also, would shared experience for everyone dilute the 1v1 trolls/elves fight a bit? Not sure how that would play out.

 

Yeah 7v7 is a future consideration after other things are worked out. Right now I have the Trolls/Elves fight changed up to allow war immediately with Alliance assistance, so that it more closely parallels the Dwarves situation. The mechanics of that fight was something I saw confuse noobs quite often, so I figure it's better to make the fight work in a way that's more intuitive for newbs to pick up, so that there's fewer Lordaerons that mass rally to Quel'Thalas and are confused while Stromgarde burns. If Trolls get knocked out fast due to this it's less of a concern due to the Stranglethorn Base they get anyways, plus they can recapture their capitals if the game goes that way. It's something to balance and see how it works out.

21 hours ago, Talinn said:

I did like LotSW a lot because of its really fast loading times and general bare-bones apporach. Most worried about custom models being added that activate my derp phobia of custom models, but everything else looks reallly good. Excited to try it out

I'm avoiding bad custom models (though that can be a matter of opinion) but what set off my spree of importation is the realization of just how much good content has been put out in the past 3 years, some good stuff I'm even finding when they were only published days before I imported it.

 

The hero XP thing is also honestly an experiment that I want to see how it plays out. I'm not sworn to the mechanic but I do want to give it a fair shake. The benefit I see of it is that it allows you to fight away from the Thandol Span without losing XP, and it also means there's less powercreep for specific heroes if they soak up XP by being in the right area. You aren't reliant on your teammates in a traditional survival sense but you benefit from them doing well in fighting, it's sort of an alternative to increased team income in that sense. It's possible XP gain may end up being too slow though to be fun for players, so overall I'm pretty ready to change this mechanic, I just want to explore it as an alternative to the traditional state of things.

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Well the Gray vs. Light Blue fight often felt like a breath of fresh air in a game where the teams often just clash at the Thandol Span.

 

Perhaps it'd be best if Gray could choose where to go with different perks. For example, picking Stranglethorn focus would give him a better navy, whereas picking Zul'Aman would give you stronger units. You'd still get all three bases no matter what you picked, but it might be really fun to see the Alliance respond to what the Trolls do. In all cases he'd get slightly different techtrees according to where he focuses.

 

I think Dwarves is in a bit better position to be surrounded by a bunch of enemies, since he has inner Ironforge to hold. And even if you gave Trolls a similar base, I think it would become a lot more monotonous - a straight mirror matchup.

 

The downside of this approach is that it takes a lot of work, but I think it would be better than just creating an Ironforge 2.0 for trolls, or just letting Zul'Aman and Hinterlands fall relatively quickly.

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On 3/27/2019 at 9:28 PM, Soup said:

Awesome to see that Eagle is on the job, another goldie oldie being modernised.

I think you mean molested

 

But seriously, looking forward to this. I remember the fights over the Bridge with Pink would last for hours - in a good way

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Posted (edited)
On 3/26/2019 at 6:58 PM, EagleMan said:

Revivable heroes (except for Lothar and Gul’dan)

Revivable demi-heroes

 

Towers cannot be freely built: they are pre-placed, capturable, and upgradeable

 

 

 

What about a voting at start to decide whether heroes are revivable or not, LOTR Fall of Arnor has that system and it's great. By towers being capturable, do you mean once they reach a certain HP they change ownership, or once they are destroyed enemy can rebuild the towers in that spot at the cost of some resources?

Edited by cell_destroyer

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49 minutes ago, cell_destroyer said:

What about a voting at start to decide whether heroes are revivable or not, LOTR Fall of Arnor has that system and it's great.

The gameplay isn't designed around the expectation of unrevivable heroes. The geography lay out also makes it difficult, because you have long corridors going up through the map. A few branches here and there, but generally you aren't free to run your heroes in multiple directions as needed, and the map is pretty solidly divided between factions rather than having allied spaces spread throughout. That factor combined with trained armies with high food caps also means you can have more units in a battle which increases the odds of heroes being trapped accidentally by allied units which would cause frustration. Heroes are designed to be used to fight, not to have you constantly afraid for their lives, there's other strategic concerns to occupy yourself with.

53 minutes ago, cell_destroyer said:

By towers being capturable, do you mean once they reach a certain HP they change ownership, or once they are destroyed enemy can rebuild the towers in that spot at the cost of some resources?

Same as past LOTSW, they can be rebuilt on the spot.

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51 minutes ago, EagleMan said:

The gameplay isn't designed around the expectation of unrevivable heroes. The geography lay out also makes it difficult, because you have long corridors going up through the map. A few branches here and there, but generally you aren't free to run your heroes in multiple directions as needed, and the map is pretty solidly divided between factions rather than having allied spaces spread throughout. That factor combined with trained armies with high food caps also means you can have more units in a battle which increases the odds of heroes being trapped accidentally by allied units which would cause frustration. Heroes are designed to be used to fight, not to have you constantly afraid for their lives, there's other strategic concerns to occupy yourself with.

Same as past LOTSW, they can be rebuilt on the spot.

 

I'm fine with that as long as their revival time actually makes it costly to just "send them in and fight", especially in higher levels. But that also has to be combined with how powerful heroes are and how much they can turn the tide of a battle. Do you mean that LOTSW will have tight corridors like AZW? Needs big open fields battles like RR.

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1 minute ago, cell_destroyer said:

Do you mean that LOTSW will have tight corridors like AZW? Needs big open fields battles like RR.

What I mean is that lore constricts gameplay to be a certain way. The Alliance is mostly up north and the Horde south separated by a bridge. There's no getting around that. I'm also not looking to copy maps that already exist and can be played, there's little point to that. I'm not interested in doing any substantial reterrain before public release, the geography of the map is initially going to be mostly the same as it was before which you can check out.

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38 minutes ago, EagleMan said:

What I mean is that lore constricts gameplay to be a certain way. The Alliance is mostly up north and the Horde south separated by a bridge. There's no getting around that. I'm also not looking to copy maps that already exist and can be played, there's little point to that. I'm not interested in doing any substantial reterrain before public release, the geography of the map is initially going to be mostly the same as it was before which you can check out.

 

I tried to check it out and crashed. EagleMan must promise he will finally turn his back on 1 inch corridors.

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Posted (edited)

Which colors do you intend to use then, since you want them to be historical (very much approved, by the way)?

 

Also, are you going to use any of the models/skins from here?

 

https://www.hiveworkshop.com/threads/resource-pack-version-1-6.195143/

 

Just asking since these are one of the best Warcraft II-like models found around, especially for knights/paladins/Lothar (the other found around are usually very WoW-like). Using them would give the Alliance a lot, a lot of Warcraft II flavor.

Edited by Marthen
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That's a pretty good resource pack I wasn't aware of. It looks like I should be able to incorporate some of those models and textures. Thanks.

 

Many factions were already set to historical colors but with the extra colors I'll be able to work a few more to be right or closer to right. Colors were sourced from the manual.

 

Blackrock Clan - Red

Stormreaver Clan - Blue

Dragonmaw Clan - Wheat

Twlight's Hammer Clan - Purple (instead of historical violet)

Bleeding Hollow Clan - Green (instead of historical white)

  • Alterac units may be colored Orange, likely only after they enter the war though

Trolls - it's unclear to me if a historical color exists.

 

Lordaeron - White (may be changed to grey)

Dalaran - Violet

Stromgarde - Maroon (instead of historical red)

Gilneas - Coal (Kul'Tiras had the color of green as an alternative, so the "emerald" color would be used if I change it from coal)

Dwarves - Yellow, but unclear again about their historical color. The Bronzebeards rule Ironforge, so they will likely remain yellow as "bronze"

High Elves - it's unclear to me if a historical color exists.

 

Lordaeron and Gilneas may be changed because of how those colors can appear for people who use Mode 1 on the minimap to display unique player colors, I otherwise didn't want to give two factions the same color despite lore accuracy.

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If I may, I have a few suggestions.

 

1) I guess you mixed it up by accident, but the Bleeding Hollow should be green and the Dragonmaw white (wheat).

 

2) If you can't use white for Lordaeron, go with light blue instead of gray. It has this "silvery" vibe and it was used for Lordaeron/the Silver Hand in Warcraft III campaigns anyway.

 

3) The elves should be teal historically, at least if official artwork is anything to follow.

 

4) They are usually some shade of green or teal, so I'd suggest dark green, since it seems still free?

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Yes I mixed it up, thanks. Light blue could be a good alternative if white doesn't work out. And yeah I have Elves as Teal but I wasn't sure where I found that information when I made that post so I didn't mention it, it's good that you independently reconfirmed it for me. If for 4 you mean Trolls then dark green was also something I was leaning towards just because it's a forest color and they're forest trolls. Thanks for your help

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Hello, just came back after the last patch, really excited to play War3 again, so how is this going?, is there already a beta version or something to play right away?

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