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Thurr

Jordan Peterson

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I love the Rubin Report. I haven't gotten around to watching these exact vids, but I am aware of Jordan Peterson's struggle and the fight for free speech he is putting up.

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I love the Rubin Report. I haven't gotten around to watching these exact vids, but I am aware of Jordan Peterson's struggle and the fight for free speech he is putting up.

This is probably one of the best conversations Rubin had in a while; Peterson is such a force and thought-provoking man. His ending statement of the second part is the most genuine and powerful statement I've ever seen on the Rubin Report.

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"Oh, let's tell the country that enshrined non absolute freedom of speech into their charter that they aren't protecting their freedom of speech absolutely"

 

I'll be shocked if peterson sticks with this. Given that we've already agreed on just about every other measure of this, he's fighting an enormously uphill legal battle. Die upon your own hill, and all that, but he probably should have started dying upon his own hill about 30 odd years ago.

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"Oh, let's tell the country that enshrined non absolute freedom of speech into their charter that they aren't protecting their freedom of speech absolutely"

 

I'll be shocked if peterson sticks with this. Given that we've already agreed on just about every other measure of this, he's fighting an enormously uphill legal battle. Die upon your own hill, and all that, but he probably should have started dying upon his own hill about 30 odd years ago.

 

Well, absolute freedom of speech is in fact enshrined in the Canadian charter. It can then be limited, under section 1, but that turns on whether the limitation is reasonable.

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The debate at the University of Toronto happened. If you're planning on watching this: get ready for a whole mixed bag of feelings.

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 @Thurr

I never once thought that JP wanted to put all the LGBT community or flamboyant feminists in front of a firing squad. His worldview is that the best days are behind us and that we need to return to the golden age through the return to traditional values. So I don't dislike him or demonize him. He has a deep longing for the old days before these particular culture wars started in earnest, and I believe he thinks he genuinely wants the best for everyone. So on that front there's very little room to want to dislike him.

That said, I find that he produces a confusing mix of regressive content and good advice. Each of his videos are best taken on a case by case basis. He makes political content where he displays a thorough array of different intellectual positions, and one of them includes a regressive view that he barely hints at without losing his credibility. It is just enough, however, that his audience takes the bait and makes all the connections they need, most of which would be deeply damaging to humanity's progress. He is an ideologue playing a very sophisticated game.

I honestly get very confused when he (or anyone else ) else rails against authoritarianism. Sure it's bad to cut off the heads of people you disagree with, but have you ever noticed that language itself is authoritarian? In espousing any ideology, including the ideology that authoritarianism is bad, you are seeking on whatever level to increase your power / status / success in life, at the expense of the freedom....of the universe to do whatever the fuck it wants. Which is what it does, because reality is amazing. JP fears chaos but it is to be celebrated, in a very nuanced and compassionate way.


There is stuff to dislike about the LGBT community and the people who say they need trigger warnings and stuff, but at the end of the day they are still more advanced in their personal development (in at least one aspect) than conservative people like JP. Because they tend to be more ecological in their thinking. Thinking about ecology doesn't happen in the conservative stages, so even if we have nice and clean gender roles the planet will be fucked. Their worldview is rapidly dismantling in the face of an ever changing universe and JP is one of the last gasps. (That said, hippies and LGBT advocates certainly have a work still left to do).

He has an army of incels and men blaming women for their problems. Having done personal development myself, I know how it is easy to watch some videos on YouTube and not do anything else substantial to improve your life. Most of the dimwit incels just watch JP all day and continue to play video games all day while complaining on Reddit. Get the fuck outta here, women don't owe you anything. Women have it harder than men realize, and the LGBT hardcore feminists fail to see that many men are being stifled. The key problem here is that nobody distinguished between layman's feminism and holistic feminism, the latter of which help addresses the concerns of men.
 

Edited by Talinn

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@Talinn

The analysis you put forward is not quite right in my estimation, I'll try to explain why.

Portraying Peterson's ideas as conservative is a swing and a miss. The emphasis on classical (liberal) values is not to sell the idea of a golden age and a beckoning to return to these times. His most important lectures are a warning of past follies: the authoritarian regimes of the twentieth century. His message is to reintegrate the ideas that, according to him, truly worked for mankind and take these with us into the twenty-first-century. His 'rescue your father' metaphor is designed to explain this. It is not to conserve some precious past, but to learn from our mistakes and treasure the things that have served us well. An almost impossible balance between progressivism and conservatism.

Could you be more clear on the regressive position you mention? I feel there's no need for any vagueness, perhaps we agree on this.

The third paragraph you wrote is complicated. It seems heavily influenced by your own view on life, which I doubt I fully grasp. In short my initial reaction; language is a neutral mode of communication. It surely has the ability to be used in authoritarian ways, but this is not inherent. Perhaps you did not imply this. Chaos should be feared. Reality is amazing on an zoomed out abstract level. This is not how people live and experience reality. Having an ideology that relies on abstract perspective play does not diminish the amount of suffering in the world.

I've left the last two paragraphs because they seem to lean too much on some form of guilt by association.

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7 hours ago, Thurr said:

Could you be more clear on the regressive position you mention? I feel there's no need for any vagueness, perhaps we agree on this.

The specific example I was thinking of was his "Make-up in the workplace" video.

He essentially asks:

"Do you not think make-up in the workplace has something to do with sexual harrassment?"

Then a bit later he says:

"Now I'm not saying that women shouldn't wear make up. But it should be considered."

He is pussyfooting around. Being evasive. He has one foot in the door that says "women shouldn't wear make-up in the workplace". Another foot in the door of "let's talk about some of the causes in an intellectual and civil way".  The latter I view as a mask for the former, especially in light of his other views which I will elaborate on further down.

His supporters only need one foot door to cheer him on and conclude that women should not wear make up in the workplace. They might transmute this to other forms of misogyny, but he is appealing to the same undercurrent of discourse in society.

...So, wait a minute. Men are supposed to be super hyper responsible and be the best men they can be, but they simply can't control themselves if a woman puts on a little makeup? This hurts men because it coddles them to some aspect of reality. It then takes the wind out of the sails for women. Women must now live their lives because men don't know how to control themselves.

Again, he does not fully endorse such a view. He merely hints at it just enough so that much of his impressionable male audience starts espousing various forms of misogyny, from the lightest shades to full-blown out hatred of women, according to the individual in question.

Is the gender identity law that calls misgendering a hate speech punishable by severe penalties problematic? Certainly. But I am assessing JP's effect on society on large, and the greater part of it seems to be negative whereas he has some good stuff to say. The fact that he created a video for PragerU essentially labeling hippies as devils with horns and tails was also pretty concerning. He's said that leftists generally do not have good intentions. How naive. Martin Luther King Jr. had good intentions. Bill Gates had good intentions. Hitler had good intentions. Everyone has good intentions. Because "good" is defined as whatever helps the self - that's why the world is a mess. He needs to be wayyy more multiperspectival.

7 hours ago, Thurr said:

His most important lectures are a warning of past follies: the authoritarian regimes of the twentieth century.

The authoritarian regimes of the twentieth century were both causes and conditions. Conditions -- of deeply deranged individuals all the way from the U.S. to Japan to Germany. Causes - in that they helped facilitate the rise of post-modernists, flawed-harmonic ideology, and the rise of supra-nationalism and ecological thinking. The European Union came into existence largely because of the authoritarian regimes of the twentieth century, and you'll also note that the EU is more progressive with regard to climate change and LGBT rights, and you can bet that this is related to the diversity/universal compassion /  emphasis on human dignity and connection lip service that hardcore leftists pay lip service to.

Any time you have suffering you will have a potential for development. The EU suffered more, thus improved their thinking more than the US did.

So by railing against atrocities in the twentieth century and then railing against some college students for preaching love and harmony between cisgenders and transgenders makes no sense. Sure, there's the great threat of climate change coming (here, actually); there's random wars and random bombings of Middle Eastern places for the hell of it; there's tons of animals being slaughtered every minute because people want their Wendy's and McDonald's and other fast food that poisons them...but sure, a college kid wanting equal LGBT rights is gonna end the world. Gimme a break.

But Talinn! That's not relevant to what we're discussing! It is though, because any time you have someone preaching and wittingly or unwittingly riling up people in favor of anti-LGBT or anti-women causes (even if they are just intellectually pussyfooting around) -- it shows that their thinking is poor. Everything is connected, and certainly streams of thought within society that strech and collapse like rubber bands.


I'd say that the leftists integrated the lessons of all the suffering in the twentieth century better than people like JP. People like JP do not understand why change is fundamentally inevitable and that undoing change will just not work.


Both people like JP and hardcore leftists are pretty similar in that they both think they can obtain progress & happiness by  creating more "good" or "positive" interactions with their environment. GL with that.

The leftists have managed to recognize and partially integrate the fact that multiple perspectives are valid and that seeking the happiness and well-being of others is worthwhile, however, have not integrated the idea that this itself is a perspective that fundamentally (and stealthily) serves primarily them. By creating the split between positive interactions and negative interactions with their enviornment, they have made the assumption that they are somehow imperative to the survival of the universe. Otherwise why classify stuff as bad or good? Post-modernism needs to move into post-post-modernism. Which is not nihilism, although easily mistaken for such.


Then you'd see leftists preaching for love and veganism and LGBT rights, and also *not* see stuff, like, "Trump is not my President!!!!!111one"

----

The only reason I mention his supporters is because in my world view I don't distinguish between Al Gore and JP very well, so I certainly don't distinguish between JP and his supporters on the meta-level. Sure, they hold different views, each one. But looking at his supporters is important to look at to conclude what type of impact he is having on humanity.

Edited by Talinn

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Tbh worlds been going from tolerance to intolerance in a cycle for centuries now

if you ask me we are going into a cycle of intolerance at the moment especially with young generations 

 

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Yeah it shrinks and expands, but is generally is moving in the direction of expansion. It just takes a while.

It's the same situation as a parent to tell her child to eat their veggies. If the parent takes away all sweets, all soda-pop, all junk food, the kid will rebel. He will throw a temper-tantrum. Even though the veggies are good for him and the sweets are trash. This is just happening on a meta level. People are accepting their veggies even if it takes five-thousand temper tantrums.

Video games are trash, tv is trash. A lotta fiction novels are trash, ads are trash. Ad says, "You can be happy if you buy this product in the future!". The future does not exist, only the present. They are appealing to something that doesn't exist.


Humans are only capable of a set range of happiness levels at which point their mind rebels. Since the mind's modus operandi is to make some part of the world his enemy, otherwise he cannot have the struggle for survival. Your happiness is inversely related to your ego,

I literally had to close my eyes walking to and from the parking lot at work otherwise all reality is just too beautiful it would be too distracting for my job. But it is naive to say that this works for everyone, can't lie though...I'd like to see this for humanity even if it smells too much like an ideology for my liking. Something I struggle with.

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1 hour ago, Talinn said:

Yeah it shrinks and expands, but is generally is moving in the direction of expansion. It just takes a while.

It's the same situation as a parent to tell her child to eat their veggies. If the parent takes away all sweets, all soda-pop, all junk food, the kid will rebel. He will throw a temper-tantrum. Even though the veggies are good for him and the sweets are trash. This is just happening on a meta level. People are accepting their veggies even if it takes five-thousand temper tantrums.

Video games are trash, tv is trash. A lotta fiction novels are trash, ads are trash. Ad says, "You can be happy if you buy this product in the future!". The future does not exist, only the present. They are appealing to something that doesn't exist.


Humans are only capable of a set range of happiness levels at which point their mind rebels. Since the mind's modus operandi is to make some part of the world his enemy, otherwise he cannot have the struggle for survival. Your happiness is inversely related to your ego,

I literally had to close my eyes walking to and from the parking lot at work otherwise all reality is just too beautiful it would be too distracting for my job. But it is naive to say that this works for everyone, can't lie though...I'd like to see this for humanity even if it smells too much like an ideology for my liking. Something I struggle with.

 

sounds like you learned a lot of stuff but cant put any of it into good use for personal benefit

 

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3 hours ago, Talinn said:

Yeah it shrinks and expands, but is generally is moving in the direction of expansion. It just takes a while.

It's the same situation as a parent to tell her child to eat their veggies. If the parent takes away all sweets, all soda-pop, all junk food, the kid will rebel. He will throw a temper-tantrum. Even though the veggies are good for him and the sweets are trash. This is just happening on a meta level. People are accepting their veggies even if it takes five-thousand temper tantrums.

 

Oh yeah? What about the GULag? No candy there. Also not much rebelling. Hard to rebel when you're malnourished and chopping lumber in Siberia 14 hours a day.

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8 hours ago, Feanor said:

Oh yeah? What about the GULag? No candy there. Also not much rebelling. Hard to rebel when you're malnourished and chopping lumber in Siberia 14 hours a day.

In Soviet Tallinn, candy IS gulag.

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1 hour ago, Talinn said:

In Soviet Tallinn, candy IS gulag.

This is so true. Now we just need to work on replacing your worship of a sentient holistic universe with a materialistic understanding of human society based on classical Marxism, and we'll be ready to send you in the Red Lavtian Rifles.

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I'm not sure, world seems so scary :(((

How will I manage?

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11 hours ago, Talinn said:

I'm not sure, world seems so scary :(((

How will I manage?

First you take a big swig of vodka. Then you yell "Za Stalina!!!" And then you mount your bear and charge into battle.

 

In all seriousness though, a good starting point is Wage Labor and Capital.

 

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/wage-labour/

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Vodka will shatter my healing crystals, so I can't drink.

I must attune to the grand attunement of the astral rays of cosmic insight of the attuning attune

13 hours ago, Feanor said:

A fine essay, and even though they were FILTHY MATERIALISTS (hehehehe), their ideas were well ahead of their time to some degree. I can really appreciate his vision and his optimism for the human race, even though he had no idea how to get to his dream. And even though his ideas were polluted by mass psychosis in Russia.

One of Marx's contemporaries (whom Marx respected) actually loosely linked the concept of not being a company's bitch to the concept of enhancing spiritual creativity / enjoyment.

Honestly being an entrepreneur is the best way to go about career at the present moment. But what will follow capitalism will obviously have at least some insights from Marxism.

Edited by Talinn

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