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ButtAirFly

Rise of China Feedback/Bugs/Suggestion Thread

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The thread for Diplomacy:Rise of China feedback, bugs to fix and suggestions

Set in the year 1200, it's a diplomacy-game similar to Diplomacy-DV.

Here's a video of some chumps getting mad about revolts:

 

The game is supposed to be focused a bit more on building and having more distinct factions than DV, with wonders and prestige trying to tackle some of the issues with the European map.

Prestige is gained by fighting which is supposed to fight hoarding and defensive play, while wonders are strengthening the building part.

 

The current factions are:

Dai Viet

Northern Vietnam. Mix of Naval n land. Looking for some ideas to give them a bit of a guerilla feel with stronger defensive focus. Also perhaps some events or missions specifically related to Champa (southern Vietnam). Perhaps choosing either at the gamestart?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Đại_Việt

Dali

Kingdom of Dali or Western Li. In the center of the map. Should get a strong defensive focus (that fits with its history).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dali_Kingdom

Japan

Island nation with infantry focus (Samurai, Shinobi). Has strong natural defenses but problems getting a hold on the mainland. Perhaps add some Wokou pirates (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wokou ) at some point?

Jin

The Jin dynasty of Northern China ruled by the Jurchen of Manchuria. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_dynasty_(1115–1234). Took over the region from the Western Liao. Should have a somewhat offensive (infantry) focus against the south and a defensive focus against the Steppe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_dynasty_(1115–1234)

Kara-Khitan

The Kara Khitan or Western Liao were driven off from northern China by the Jin and re-established themselves in Central Asia. Should feel like a mix between Steppe and Chinese civilization (e.g. Horse Archers and Gunpowder?)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qara_Khitai

Khmer

Ancient empire in a state of decline. Should focus on construction. Perhaps add some events or options regarding becoming Sukothai?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmer_Empire

Korea

Faction in the northeast that should focus on defense and archery.

Mongols

Historically the faction that won. Should feel like a zerging army with Horse Archers that (initially) has problems fighting against defense

Song

The "true" Chinese faction that's considered the Imperial dynasty. Should have a strong economy, population and culture, but a weakened military (though high technology like crossbows, gunpowder etc.).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song_dynasty

Pagan

Burmese faction with a focus on religion, expansion and construction. Maybe give a bonus from stupas?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagan_Kingdom

Singhasari

An indonesian javanese kingdom that should revolve around dropping units. Not really sure what to do religiously around Indonesia atm with Islam and/or Hinduism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singhasari

Tibet

Defensive religious nations that is supposed to fight best in the mountains/chokes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet#Era_of_Fragmentation

Tondo

Island nation in the Philippines with a focus on trade and ship to ship combat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tondo_(historical_state)

Xi-Xia

The Western Xia or Tangut empire originally descended from the Tibetian plains. Should feel a bit alien in the environment of the semi-Steppe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Xia

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I've not touched China in a while, but if you haven't already, please, PLEASE, add some form of long ranged siege, Cannons, especially since they're limited, don't cut it, massed defenses just wreck everything right now.

 

edit: I never noticed the new updates to this, which are pretty old by now, i'm loving the catapults :D ty butt now we have a solution to the bs defence spam.

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in terms of historical/factual accuracy, the state religion of xixia dynasty was buddhism and not confuscianism just sayin

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True.

Though Confucianism was the dominant ideology of the state and Xi-Xia became increasingly sinicized towards the end of the state (the time period of the game). As both Confucianism and Buddhism are big in the state, it was more of a value pick on what works better for the game

See e.g.: http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.13173/centasiaj.57.2014.0139

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Spear throwers are bugged, they don't cost anything and aren't buildable, yet they are still on the barracks and basically just wastes 7 seconds if you press it. No unit, no cost.

 

Fire lances are basically worthless, their damage stays the same with their DV counterparts, along with their range and attackspeed, which sucks for this unit as Bowmen have more dps, are cheaper, builds faster, and are more massable. Needs a fix quickly.

 

There needs to be more special units, especially for Dai Viet and Dali as they're not really enticing as factions right now. Though since i don't really know much of Asian history, i can't give any suggestions with historical backing.

 

another suggestion would be to port over more of DV's castle upgrades, a university-like building similar to DV's university (research techs and so on), perhaps the (mostly) useless palace could be used for this, and would make spending quite a good bit of jade on it reasonable if it unlocks research that (could probably) cost jade.

 

Otherwise its fun and very very addictive, though the amount of doodads lags the game sometimes.

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Thanks for the feedback. New version coming up this weekend with some fixes.

  • Spear Thrower bug seems to have been a version mismatch. They will be back in.
  • Fire Lancers damage will be increased from 17 to 22 but attackspeed reduced from 3.1 to 3.4. May have to do something else to differentiate their mechanics from spear throwers still though. Perhaps armor reduction or something?
  • Dali will get a unique Siege mentality upgrade for 1500 Prestige that will give all defensive structures (Walls, Catapults on Walls, Doors, Towers, Watchtowers, Coastal Fortifications, Castles) they own + 0,5 life regeneration each second. Maybe that will be linked with a mission or something else later on. Dali should play a bit like Georgia in DV as a very defensive nation entreched, but unlike Georgia it is in the center of the map so pressured from all sides. Historically based on the difficult times the Mongols had there against the Bai and its rather long dynastic-imperial history (300+) years, compared to the other dynasties.
  • Dai Viet will get a Vietnamese Skirmisher with low life, high speed and high life regeneration. It's based on their, if not guerrilla, then hit and run tactics against the Mongols. The Horse Archer is a bit misplaced for them at the moment, but I'll leave it until theres something cooler to do with them. I think what would be interesting there is to give them an option between Champa or Dai Viet, the first being more peaceful defensive/builders n the latter maybe more warlike and mobile, perhaps with a Confucian touch? The terrain at that area is still pretty boring as well at the moment so I'll try to fix that up a bit

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If Dali's purpose is to be defensive, why the special ram? ._.

Sure i don't know much about Asian history, but it seems... off, that a defensive inclined nation will have a siege unit for a specialty. I would suggest replacing that with something akin to a special, cheaper tower, or perhaps their capital structure could have aoe attacks and be able to train warriors?

 

A few factions also still don't have their second special unit, and i'll think about what those could be once i do some research. And Jin still has a Scandinavian raider, which honestly doesn't seem to fit...

 

Edit: Viet doesn't have the special skirm, also, would there potentially be an upgrade in order to make spear throwers faster? I.e. DV skirm speed upgrade, because javelins and throwing spears were used as skirmishing tools, not as ranged support most of the time.

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how about song special being fire lance and cannon special since han chinese had the most advanced gunpowder technology in the world at that time lol

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K, did some more testing, another bug to report is great commander doesn't give the aura, and i saw that massed defenses are still pretty common, and pretty viable even with catapults, I'd say increase catapult damage, and aoe size, so that camping over a forest of towers is less of a sweet strat, and more of a hellhole for both.

 

I also have thought of a few events for Mongolia about its conquest of Persia and arrival in Europe:

  • The conquest of Persia in 1219 could possibly give +100 pop in all provinces, signifying the start of Mongol dominance in Central Asia
  • Arrival in Europe at 1223 could possibly give a free stable near the northwestern corner
  • Subjugation of the Rus in 1240 could be a +1500 gold event single-time
  • Genghis' taking of the Throne in 1206 being an event that give's the mongols 8 horse archers and 2 heavy cavalry to represent Genghis Khan's plans for conquest.

Some more ideas i thought that would help reduce the heavy infantry spam in pubs is to increase the heavy bonus damage of pikes and spear throwers by 15 and 3 respectively. And some more ideas about underused/ineffective units/units with no practical counter:

  • The pikeman could use an increase to base damage by 15 seeing as its still the DV damage stats making pikes less of a burst damage armor-piercing/cavalry/heavy counter, and more of a liability with its 2 pop cost. Another change i'd like to see would be an upgrade to increase pikemen range by 1, to reference their mass use in formations, but to reduce its armor by 2 (negative armor), making them much more vulnerable to missiles, as were pike formations in real life. The change is supposed to imitate the transition from short spears to long pikes. (perhaps this could be put into DV as well.)
  • The spear thrower needs more damage against the units its supposed to be countering as 2 bonus vs heavy isn't really much to go on at the moment. Spear throwers could also use a slight boost to attackspeed (0.1) seeing as javelins were able to be thrown quickly. These changes i'd feel would warrant a range decrease by 1 or 1.3 seeing as javelins were incredibly short ranged in real life, but very dangerous and fast (take Greek peltasts for example).
  • Heavy cavalry are basically just worse elephants if elephants are available to your faction. The only advantage they have is their speed. Perhaps give them some more utility in some way? like Melee damage reduction perhaps, or bonus damage on the attack just after charging?

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Some of the fixes should adress that stuff:

- Heavy Cavalry now deals an additional 15 damage to light units while charging

- fixed some icons

- fixed some text

- fixed an issue with Vietnamese Skirmisher

- fixed some nation selection text stuff

- Increased Catapult Splash radius from 0.4 to 0.5 for full damage, from 0.8 to 1 for half damage and from 1.2 to 1.5 for 25% damage

- fixed some wireframes

- fixed some animations

- fixed an issue with Great General aura

- removed Shields from Junks (added extra life)

- fixed some sounds

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Tested new patch today, Vietnamese skirmisher has a hotkey conflict with the ram, and its damage is insubstantial compared to other Rise of China units, not worth 60 gold at the moment, maybe a damage of increase of 2-3 could help.

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K, did some more testing, another bug to report is great commander doesn't give the aura, and i saw that massed defenses are still pretty common, and pretty viable even with catapults, I'd say increase catapult damage, and aoe size, so that camping over a forest of towers is less of a sweet strat, and more of a hellhole for both.

 

I also have thought of a few events for Mongolia about its conquest of Persia and arrival in Europe:

  • The conquest of Persia in 1219 could possibly give +100 pop in all provinces, signifying the start of Mongol dominance in Central Asia
  • Arrival in Europe at 1223 could possibly give a free stable near the northwestern corner
  • Subjugation of the Rus in 1240 could be a +1500 gold event single-time
  • Genghis' taking of the Throne in 1206 being an event that give's the mongols 8 horse archers and 2 heavy cavalry to represent Genghis Khan's plans for conquest.

Some more ideas i thought that would help reduce the heavy infantry spam in pubs is to increase the heavy bonus damage of pikes and spear throwers by 15 and 3 respectively. And some more ideas about underused/ineffective units/units with no practical counter:

  • The pikeman could use an increase to base damage by 15 seeing as its still the DV damage stats making pikes less of a burst damage armor-piercing/cavalry/heavy counter, and more of a liability with its 2 pop cost. Another change i'd like to see would be an upgrade to increase pikemen range by 1, to reference their mass use in formations, but to reduce its armor by 2 (negative armor), making them much more vulnerable to missiles, as were pike formations in real life. The change is supposed to imitate the transition from short spears to long pikes. (perhaps this could be put into DV as well.)
  • The spear thrower needs more damage against the units its supposed to be countering as 2 bonus vs heavy isn't really much to go on at the moment. Spear throwers could also use a slight boost to attackspeed (0.1) seeing as javelins were able to be thrown quickly. These changes i'd feel would warrant a range decrease by 1 or 1.3 seeing as javelins were incredibly short ranged in real life, but very dangerous and fast (take Greek peltasts for example).
  • Heavy cavalry are basically just worse elephants if elephants are available to your faction. The only advantage they have is their speed. Perhaps give them some more utility in some way? like Melee damage reduction perhaps, or bonus damage on the attack just after charging?

 

The main problem with adding events to China map would be that most of the major factions would be wiped out by the mongols by mid 1200s.

 

Kara Khitan - Conquered by 1220.

Xixia - Vassaled to Mongol 1210. Conquered 1227.

Jin - Lose northern China territory incl Beijing during first invasion of 1211. Conquered by Mongol 1234 after siege of Kaifeng and Caizhou.

Goryeo - Conquered by 1257 after 7 separate invasions (1231, 1232, 1235-39, 1251, 1254, 1255, 1257)

Song - Conquered after series of lengthy wars (1235-1279)

Tibet - Fully conquered by 1278

 

Meaning above countries would have no more events after dates of elimination in actual history. Except Goryeo which would declare independence on 1356. Ming Dynasty would also break free from Yuan on 1368, but that would be a completely different dynasty from Song.

 

I imagined what itd be like to spawn a number of keshigs and battering rams for Mongol player for every year there is a particular campaign against X nation. Itd be extremely fun for the player playing Mongol, but highly unappealing to the nations that have to face them lol.

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Hmm true, though i'd rather take what events i can, China seems rather barren at the moment :P, though its developing nicely

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Yeah, that's essentially the reason there are no events. I may try to add some more random events at some point (like harvests, comets, volcanoes, cherry blossom festivals, tradebonuses, prestige + or - stuff).

Latest small patch is:

- increased Vietnamese Skirmisher damage by 2 and fixed a hotkey issue

- Pagan Buddhist Stupas now have the Devotion ability

- fixed some icons

- added unit: Dali Kingsguard

- fixed some performance related issues

 

Devotion may not yet work fully, will try to fix that during the weekend with some additional content.

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Even still, Mongols right now are pretty weak, if not events, then some form of early-game strength could help them from being a crappy faction, to something that's actually able to beat Jin/Song. maybe less defences in the provinces around them?

 

Also, if i recall, Khara-Khitan were nomadic, perhaps give them a special light cav?

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The main problem with adding events to China map would be that most of the major factions would be wiped out by the mongols by mid 1200s.

 

One idea would be to make the events bound to provinces instead of nations.

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New patch is up.

Changes include a new upgrade system. It's now running one upgrade chain for the previous infantry, cavalry, siege and naval upgrades from the blacksmith. The idea is that they will be the baseline for upgrades, and multiple smaller upgrades that upgrade specific units or unit groups will be added to give more customization and level options for upgrades. The smaller upgrades may work like the upgrades in my lotr-ish maps. A few of those are already added, but ill try to expand here in the future.

Furthermore, there are also a few more missions and unique buildings. Here, the map should imo also go in a different direction of Diplomacy-DV, giving each of the 14 factions more specialization and a more unique feel, rather than having 40-50 nations like in DV, which are more similar to each other.

Some smaller fixes for hotkeys, icons, better models, correct sounds etc. are also added.

Happy for feedback and ideas for upgrades, missions or faction specialisations.

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Bugs:

Gold doesn't actually give income, played as song and captured the goldmine below Mount Song, didn't show anything in the income tab and didn't gain extra minerals either.

Also as song, at the start i had 106 'other income', But the only sources of income i could see were the Bastard(1) and the Capital (75), is the capital tooltip wrong or was i just missing something/is there some hidden income source?

Ugyur Button is disabled

Footman/basic archer/dali kingsguard doesn't gain anything for attack upgrades

Mandate of heaven objective doesnt seem to work again

Zaysan Doesn't show under it's name that it's part of central asia trade

Suggestions:

Show Prestige income somewhere

 

Add a way to transfer Provinces without declaring war.

 

Reduce vassal from 50% income to 25% income, so some people will actually accept it instead of just quitting, it currently just ruins the game when you are vassaled to someone (considering you're usually already very weak when a vassal)

 

Nerf tea to 0.1 bonus growth, Currently Song can get all but 1 of the tea's on the map which provides a 1.0 bonus, usually leading to song having double the Population of anyone on the map after about 10 minutes(Happened 5/5 games that i played as song atleast)

Spreading them out more could also be an option. (I think all resources should be spread out more anyway, currently most of a single resource is only on one part of the map, such as spice only being in indonesia and tea being only in south china)

 

Increase the production time of rams to 20. Still think it's too easy to just bulldoze across the map with them, but i might be wrong here, some other options to nerf them would be increasing cost to something like 125-150 or adding a limit of 10-20 to them.

 

Reduce the cost of the special upgrades (Such as the wall upgrade for Song and the regen upgrade for Dali) to 750-1000, they're currently too expensive for their cost, a wonder or upgrades are both cheaper and WAY more worth the cost.

 

Fill all castles at the start of the game so the provinces next to them can't just be grabbed for free.

 

Units suggestions:

A Xia/Jin cataphract for the Xia/Jin, Heavy cavalry with maybe +1 armor? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cataphract#Cataphracts_in_East_Asia)

A Yumi Bowman for Japan, Archer with 0.5/1 extra range?

 

Some random events you could add:

Population boom:

Increase the population of a random province by X, Should have a 1/20 or so chance of happening each year or perhaps even more imo, China/other areas of the map were doing fairly well in this age as far as i've read so far.

Famine/plague:

Decrease the population of a random province by X, these were pretty much always present somewhere in medieval times.

A Great person is born!:

A great poet/General/Architect etc etc is born, gives +50 prestige. Could also give some units or a building or so in the case of an architect or general.

(For Jin/Xia, or maybe whoever owns a province in the region)

Great wall maintainance:

-X income for maintainance for the great wall

Marco Polo:

Give money/prestige to the owner of provinces that he visited.

A General rebels!/The population is unhappy/whatever:

Spawn rebels at a random province.

 

Also for the diffrent feel of factions, heres my idea of what they are (My asian history knowledge is non existant so i might have some things wrong)

Dali/Tibet:

Turtle nations, focused mostly on defenses and natural resources

Song/Jin/Xia:

Focused on population growth and high quality troops.

Mongols/Khara-Kitai:

Focused on a large cavalry force and using the large area of the upper plains to surround enemies with them.

Tondo/Japan:

Focused on a large naval force, and raiding the mainland.

Others:

Don't know enough about them to give my opinion.

 

A way to achieve this could be some upgrades that are unique to each faction(s) and increase effectives of the tactics named above, But i'm tired for now so i can't think of any.

 

~Dj

 

PS. starting to love this map, keep updating it and i'm sure it will be better/equally good as DV!

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Tondo should be more oriented toward controlling trade and economy, its position on the Pacific Ocean made it dominate overseas trade traffic, the people were less focused on conquest, and more focused on building wealth, it was said that when the Spanish landed on the Philippines, it was loaded in gold, from the smallest barangays to the largest cities. I would appreciate if the Tondo could be updated with more options for economy and strategic potential and deviation(instead of the tried and tested (to be slightly op i might add) Spice route and Spice rush).

 

Map's turning out great, and i'm lovin' every moment, keep it up Butt!

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New patch has a Khmer -> Sukothai transformation, some new 30% Vassal option n a lot of minor performance fixes (removing some high vertex doodadds, unseen stuff, small terrain improvements).

Still happy for cool ideas!

edit: will be up soon after blizz maintenance is over

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